The Evolving Role of Fathers

Lesa Koski: 00:00:00

Welcome listeners to Saddle Up Live.

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I'm super excited to have

David Pizarra here today.

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And I actually got to know David

a little bit on my podcast,

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Doing Divorce Different.

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And I thought it would be so fun to

have him on Saddle Up Live because he

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is giving us a different perspective

than I usually have on this podcast.

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He's giving us the dad's perspective.

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So if you want more information about dads

and the mistakes they make during divorce,

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go back to doing divorce different.

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But today on Saddle Up Live, we're

going to hear David's authentic story.

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What led him to do the work that he does.

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He is the founder of Dads.

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Law school.

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He's an author.

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He's got a podcast called

the men's family law podcast.

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So he's busy out there working.

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We're going to learn about

what led him to do that work.

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And then we're going to talk about

how dad's roles have changed.

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And I'm excited about this

because I'm watching my son.

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Be a father and I'm seeing great changes.

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And I saw, I told David, my husband

was a great, very hands on dad.

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And I can't even believe how much

more I'm seeing dads involved.

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So I can't wait to get

David's perspective.

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So welcome, David.

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Thank you for joining us here too.

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David Pisarra: Thank you, Lisa.

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It's great being here.

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You know, I'm really excited to talk

about your son and his experience because

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the way in which fathers are engaging

today is so dramatically different than

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like even my, my father's generation.

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It was like he was World War II,

totally different perspective.

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Where they were like, I'm

never changing a diaper hair.

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Dads are like, give me that kid.

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I want to be full time parent.

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I got dads fighting to be stay at home.

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Parents totally for world.

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Lesa Koski: I know.

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And the paternity leave even that's crazy.

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Okay.

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So, but David, like before we

get into the guts of that, Let my

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listeners get to know you a little.

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Share your story.

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Cause it's kind of interesting

and a little bit like mine.

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David Pisarra: Sure.

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So I'm a single gay man with no kids.

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I used to have a dachshund,

but he passed away.

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Dudley was the best.

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Dudley was this long and about

this tall and long floppy hair.

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And for years he would work under my desk.

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He would just sleep under

my desk while I worked.

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Um, but so 25 years ago, I started

bizarre and Chris, my law friend

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with my partner, and we met first day

of law school, became best friends.

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Open up our law office.

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I'm the marketing guy.

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I would go to the Rotary Club and the

Elks Club and the Chamber of Commerce

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and I do my little dog and pony show

because I wanted to do business law.

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I wanted to go be captain of industry.

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My partner wanted to do family law.

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And I was like, Oh no, ew, gross.

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But I would go and I would do my little

show and I would talk about what I

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wanted and how I could help people.

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And then I would always say,

and my partner does family

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and they would rush me.

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Can he lower my child support?

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Can he get me out of this alimony?

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I gotta get a divorce.

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I need a restraining order.

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And before I knew it,

his calendar was full.

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And then his calendar

spilling into my calendar.

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24 years later, I'm a divorce lawyer.

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I'm like, how did that happen?

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Lesa Koski: Isn't that crazy?

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Okay.

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And so what the listeners are probably

like, what do you guys have in common?

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Well, the thing is, is I have been

doing divorces and I've been married

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for 32 years and never divorced.

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So, and David's helping dads and well,

you were kind of a dad to your Dotson.

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David Pisarra: Right.

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Dudley at one point

Dudley had three gay dads.

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And let me tell you,

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nothing better than having three gay dads.

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Lesa Koski: Oh, are you

getting another dog?

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David Pisarra: I will

eventually, I'm still

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Lesa Koski: kind of, it's

hard, you know, it's a, it's

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David Pisarra: a huge commitment.

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And we were lucky in that we

shared custody of, which, and I

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wrote a book called What About

Wally on how to co parent a pet.

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And it's based off of all of my

experience dealing with parents who

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are co parenting their children.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah.

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So I

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David Pisarra: have all this experience

and then it came to our dog and

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I'm like, I'm not fighting you over

custody, I'm not fighting you over time.

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And it was a really good experience, but a

full time dog is a lot of responsibility,

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you know, like being a full time single

parent, it's a lot of responsibility.

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And I like the idea of sharing because

i'm good at sharing I don't know

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eventually i'll get another one.

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We'll see.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah.

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Yeah Well, and that you know, it's

interesting because in a lot of divorces

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that I work on the pet is an issue

That we need to talk about So so that

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is something Okay, so now I don't want

to talk about divorce anymore because

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that's all on the other podcast.

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I want to talk about All the role

of fathers has changed and I can

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tell you watching my son, Oh my

gosh, she's got a little baby

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girl and they've got another one.

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I'm due any minute.

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I mean, she's been, yeah, so

that's going to be really fun.

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Um, but he, I love the idea that

they, they get paternity leave.

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My husband never had that.

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And, um, so he's going to, you get to

do that together, you know, after you

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have a child, you get to be together

taking care of them, or I think

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sometimes people will separate them

out, you know, sometimes, sometimes,

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David Pisarra: sometimes

people will alternate the time.

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Um, I did a movie called

dadness d a d n e s s.

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It's on youtube.

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It's a little short documentary It's

a short maybe I think 20 25 minutes

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Talking about the role of fathers in our

society and how it's changed what what

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dadness means It's like this concept of

being a dad and how that's important.

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I didn't know

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Lesa Koski: that that's really cool

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David Pisarra: I've done a lot of stuff.

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So

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Lesa Koski: yeah

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David Pisarra: One of the things

that came out of that was a lot of

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companies offer paternity leave You

But men are hesitant to take it.

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They're hesitant because they're concerned

that if they take those six weeks, then

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it's going to set them back in their

careers, which is of course, analogous

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to the concern that many women have of,

do I want to have a kid because then

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my career gets set back and then we're

dealing with all these other issues.

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So more and more dads though,

are taking advantage of

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paternity leave and they should.

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There's a really big biological reason

for this, and if you think about it from

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this perspective, that child has spent

nine months essentially one on one with

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mom, meaning completely incubated, and

now they've separated, and now that child

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is coming into the world and has a father

and needs that time to bond with dad, and

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that's the perfect time because they're

really receptive to it at that age.

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is very sensual.

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It's sm are coming in new feelin I

protected and they need to have that

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experience t man being held by their

f And so as more dads are taking

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advantage better for the Children and

what's happening is also it's better

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for the dads because it allows them

to bond to get that oxytocin going to

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really make that emotional connection

to their Children that they need.

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So I'm seeing more and more dads

take that paternity leave And then

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what ends up happening is now they're

really protective of their time.

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Now they're like, I want

more of this, which is great.

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It's what we want to see.

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We want to see those engaged

fathers because dads bring so much

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to the relationship and parenting

and skills and what they do.

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And we know the children who are

raised with the father in their life.

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Do you better academically, socially,

emotionally, physically, less drug

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abuse, less substance abuse, less

early childhood sexual activity.

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Everything is just better when

you've got both parents at home

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and having a strong father is a

huge indicator of lifetime success.

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Lesa Koski: Amen.

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And I can't help, but I thought of

something that was kind of parallel when

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you were talking about the bonding where

I have a unique experience where, um,

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I naturally had my older children and

we adopted our baby, our baby by far.

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So we have three and I think,

and we were so fortunate.

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Um, and I know this isn't true of

everyone, but she was two days old

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when we were able to adopt her.

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And that bonding.

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I am telling you it was, it was funny.

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I forgot that she didn't come out

of my body the moment I held her.

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And I, I just know when you were

talking about that with fathers, it

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just struck me that bonding is so

important and the earlier the better.

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I mean, and of course you can't always

have that, but the earlier the better.

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David Pisarra: A hundred percent.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah.

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David Pisarra: You know, in my men's

group, I'm part of a pretty big men's

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group and, um, I remember this like 15

years ago, we were at lunch and one of

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the guys was talking about how he's been a

stay at home dad and he's describing what

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a life is like and how he's enjoying it.

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Coming from being like an academic,

he was going for his PhD or whatever.

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And like, the next 10 shares in the group

were like, I want to be a stay at home

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dad, I want to be a stay at home dad.

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Like, as soon as you like pop the

bubble, like they all want it.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah, I want to have that

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David Pisarra: experience because

they're really connected to their

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children People think men are not

connected to their children and they

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really are far more than what they

want, what society wants to acknowledge.

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Lesa Koski: Well, and this

is interesting, David.

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I can't even believe I

didn't talk about this.

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This is my other son, my son in law, Alec.

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Um, so my daughter is in her residency

and they have a three year old.

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You talk about Mr.

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Dad, he is, he has the maternal,

he, it, so I can't even believe

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I didn't bring that up to you.

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I was thinking about Jack because they've

got this baby, another one coming on

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the, but Alec is, He is the one that

my grandson runs to, um, you know,

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when he skins his knee, I'm sure it's

a little hard for a doctor mom, but

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it, it has worked and I think, and he's

still working, so he's not stay at home.

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Dad, boy, it's tough, you know, and

they're a little bit further away, so

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it's harder for me to help as much.

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Hopefully that's going to be

changing soon, but I mean, his role,

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his role is Completely different.

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Also, just like I see Jack, you

know, being the one who's doing

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swimming lessons with their daughter.

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And that's Jack is my son, you know,

and I just, and getting change in the

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diapers, um, getting lots of meals,

you know, take kind of doing more

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of it's more equal, it's more equal.

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And I love it.

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And the babies are happy.

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David Pisarra: And, and your son and

your son in law are both happier too.

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Because it brings all

of those emotions up.

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It brings those memories up.

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We're creating experiences that allow

them to find the real value in life.

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I mean, we love to talk in America

about how important it is to go make

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a million dollars a year and be like

captain of industry and own lots of stuff.

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2008, my world changed

dramatically as most of ours did.

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Recession hit hard and I

had to go through a reset.

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And part of my reset was.

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dumping a household full of just

stuff, things that I bought on TV,

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couches I didn't need, you know,

how many couches can you sit on?

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Right?

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I mean, seriously, it was the

most freeing experience because I,

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what I came to realize was what's

really important in this life.

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And that is what most dads are

now starting to recognize is

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what's really important to them.

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Yeah.

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They like getting a promotion at work.

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Yeah.

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They like the bonuses, the paychecks.

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Most of my clients, most of my friends

who are fathers would live 10 percent

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less of a financial life if they could

have 10 percent more time with their kids.

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Lesa Koski: Amen.

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They realize

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David Pisarra: like that's

the real value in life.

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Lesa Koski: Yep.

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And it's interesting because, um, my

dad, he's 83 and you know, when I grew

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up, dad's You know, my mom would, she

worked part time and she would come and

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watch my tennis meets or track meets.

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And my dad couldn't always, he

was working, you know, and it

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was, everybody was doing that.

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And then it was so funny because, um,

when my kids were little, there was a

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time when he was still working and then,

um, he retired and he was like, I mean,

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I don't want to make you feel bad, but

I think I like being a grandpa more than

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a dad because he got to spend the time.

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And now with their great grandchildren,

my parents are still involved.

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And it's a time that my dad

really gets to hold the baby.

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And it's so, I mean, he went deer

hunting the day I was born and

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he's going to listen to this.

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He's the only family member

that listens to my podcast.

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Are you kidding me?

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I mean, I would not have allowed

that, but it was a different time.

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And then I think of my husband's

dad was, has passed away and he was.

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a bit older.

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I think he was older when he, when

my husband was born, but for he,

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um, he did spend quite a bit of time

with his kids even way back then.

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So what a blessing, what a blessing.

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And he worked in the mines

in Northern Minnesota.

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So, yeah, but he would come home probably

like three in the afternoon and he did

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get to go to their sporting events.

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And, um, so, you know, um, I don't know.

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I just feel like I've been so blessed

to be able to see, see my dad, get to

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experience, be married to someone who

knew that before we were together.

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What a blessing.

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So if you're a dad and listening,

I mean, it is so worth it to

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be connected to your kids.

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And I think people know that now.

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I mean, I think it's, it's awesome.

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A

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David Pisarra: hundred percent.

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Lesa Koski: You know, and it's

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David Pisarra: better for everybody.

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I mean, studies will show that

older adults who are connected with

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their children and grandchildren

live longer, better lives.

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Lesa Koski: I've seen that.

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I've seen that on Instagram.

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I'm like, yeah, I'm going to

work less and grandma more.

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Exactly.

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David Pisarra: Ooh.

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I like that.

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She put that on a coffee mug.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah, I should.

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I should work less grandma more.

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Um, and, but I, and I

see it with my parents.

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They were very involved with

their grandchildren in there, um,

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in their eighties, my dad plays

tenants three nights a week.

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I think he might be better than

he's none of us can beat him.

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They're just.

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Um, super active and, um, and

very active in their grand,

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great grandchildren's life.

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So they help with them.

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David Pisarra: Yeah.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah.

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So it is, it's awesome.

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David Pisarra: One of the things, one

of the things that I see is like, like

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in my practice, I see dads who are

fighting for more time with their children

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because what's happening, like in your,

in your children's generation and the

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generation behind that's coming behind

them, they're not getting married as

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much, but they're still having children.

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Yeah.

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So we still have parenting

issues and co parenting issues

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and they're really stepping up.

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They're stepping up by taking

the co parenting class.

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They're stepping up by

taking the parenting class.

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They're showing how to learn early

childhood development and then using

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that as they're raising their children.

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So it's a really nice time to be watching

men step up into a new role in our

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society and being proactive about it.

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Lesa Koski: Yep.

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And yeah, and that hits home because

I know my son in law and my son,

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um, they're, they're It's so cute.

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They'll say, Oh, I looked that up.

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Like if they're kids doing something that,

you know how they do wackadoodle things

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and you're like, Oh, what's going on?

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Well, I looked that up and this

is why they say that happens.

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And I'm like, what?

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That's so awesome and cool.

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So I think, you know, today's world

can be rough, you know, there's rough

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stuff going on, but there's a lot

of really good things coming out.

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To new and things are

getting better in some ways.

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So I don't wanna always be gloom

and doom because I think some people

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can that get that way these days.

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But, um, , you know,

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David Pisarra: we're not

gonna touch that third rail.

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I see it.

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Lesa Koski: Oh well David, I see our time

is coming to an end, but I'm so thankful.

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Is there anything else you wanna

add that we didn't cover about

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how the role of dads is changing?

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David Pisarra: I think that,

well, because you can't have

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one change without the other.

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: 00:17:13

So dad's role is changing,

but so is mom's role, right?

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Like she's got to counterbalance that.

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Like there's a, you've got to,

you've got to give up time.

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You got to let go of the reins.

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: 00:17:24

And the big thing I think for both

parents is to remember is that just

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: 00:17:29

because somebody is parenting differently

from you doesn't make them wrong.

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Lesa Koski: Amen.

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: 00:17:34

And that's, what's so important, not only

for when you're parenting together, But

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: 00:17:39

when you're getting divorced, because

you can't control that and they're

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: 00:17:44

both important, they need both of you.

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: 00:17:47

David Pisarra: Even if you're not getting

a, like a technical divorce because you

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weren't married, but you're separate.

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: 00:17:51

Lesa Koski: Right.

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: 00:17:52

Right.

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David Pisarra: That's a big factor too.

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: 00:17:54

Like I've got people who dad

does things one way, mom does

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things another, and that's okay.

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They're not right.

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: 00:18:00

If you're not hurting the

kid, difference is okay.

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: 00:18:04

Lesa Koski: I love that you brought that

up because what I always tell people,

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would you get mad if grandma did it?

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: 00:18:09

Like if someone comes in, my husband, you

know, my ex is feeding him donuts every

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day for breakfast or whatever it is.

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: 00:18:16

And you go, well, would

you get mad at grandma?

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No.

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: 00:18:19

Well then let it go because it's more

important that you're not fighting

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and that you're both in their lives.

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: 00:18:27

Right?

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: 00:18:27

David Pisarra: Huge,

hugely more important.

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: 00:18:29

because that fighting is

impacts on that child for life.

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The negative impact in the household

are huge about that for an hour.

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Lesa Koski: I

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But yeah, so whether you're

divorced or married, the fighting

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has a, has an impact on them.

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So yeah.

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Yep.

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: 00:18:51

All right.

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: 00:18:52

Well, David, thank you so much for

joining me on Saddle Up Live too.

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And listeners, if you want to hear him

more talking more about divorce, go to

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Doing Divorce Different and we'll have all

of David's information in the show notes.

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: 00:19:05

David Pisarra: Thank you, Lisa.

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: 00:19:06

Lesa Koski: Take care.

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: 00:19:09

Bye bye.